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  • well, i'm glad we all agree on the ethics regarding porn/erotica vs. violence.

    @'BobbyC':

    Don't know if this relates to your overall point, but the reason I love 3dx is because I think of it as almost a morally pure form of erotica/porn/whatever, no -one gets hurt, no-one is used or abused for the sake of my viewing pleasure, and no-one gets "objectified" because all the characters actually are objects.

    Sorry I'm not contributing to the main topic, but I've just got to quote this part of fred's earlier post.

    This really captures something about 3dx and, I think, about the 3dx community, at least the one here. It's not about taking what we want but more about creating what we want. There's a huge difference between the two.

    sure, all pixels were concenting adults and no pixels was harmed but…
    images (can) convey strong ideologies; caricatures of a prophet can get you on a most wanted list. even if the paper & the pen were consenting and not harmed.
    you probably all know some of the litterature about porn & the image of women. its a heated subject among feminists & i wont go there.

    i try to always think my scene over but of course, the creative process leave the rational at the door & i do leave free reign to my fantasies.

    now about the politics:
    on one side of the balance, there is the culturally rooted macho dominance, the objectified woman, and the dark fantasies. on the other end, the emancipating tool, the thought provoking imagery that can influence the viewer. the recent Femen movement shows for it !

    i still dont know how i want to represent it but i'm daydreaming girls tearing up their burqua in the face of their oppressive fathers; not so canon beauty made desirable & courted; macho men fumbling for what they think their virility is and failing, while the naive gets the girls attention for being himself.
    something to do with breaking the patterns, the shackles of cultural conservatism.



  • @'fredfred5150':

    The movie "Antichrist" with Willem Defoe features an explicit sex scene (during the opening credits if memory serves) And I mean completely explicit, filmed like a porno.

    Theres also a french movie (I don't know the name) where Rocco Siffredi has explicit sex with an adorable teenage actress. The fact that the movie looked like a love story is ironic considering how that guy usually treats women

    I believe the more explicit sex scenes found in movies generally comes from European ones. The US has a more 'strict' criteria. Or they generally leave them as unrated. I do wonder how to properly categorize these films though. I generally think it's more of the original intent of the filmmakers themselves (self-assesment) rather than imposed by a regulatory body/agency.

    Then there are those leaked homevideos. Now, I know some got picked up by porn studios and they're definitely not labeled as MA or unrated.


  • administrators

    my quick 2c on violence and porn

    porn is by definition the exact opposite of harm, I think we can all agree that an orgam is a pretty agreeable experience :)

    IF violence is mixed with porn, it's not porn that's despicable it's the violence!



  • @'fredfred5150':

    Don't know if this relates to your overall point, but the reason I love 3dx is because I think of it as almost a morally pure form of erotica/porn/whatever, no -one gets hurt, no-one is used or abused for the sake of my viewing pleasure, and no-one gets "objectified" because all the characters actually are objects.

    Sorry I'm not contributing to the main topic, but I've just got to quote this part of fred's earlier post.

    This really captures something about 3dx and, I think, about the 3dx community, at least the one here. It's not about taking what we want but more about creating what we want. There's a huge difference between the two.



  • @'fredfred5150':

    Theres also a french movie (I don't know the name) where Rocco Siffredi has explicit sex with an adorable teenage actress. The fact that the movie looked like a love story is ironic considering how that guy usually treats women

    Romance, from Catherine Breillat
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0194314/?ref_=sr_2

    she also shot Anatomy of Hell, another movie with Rocco:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0348529/

    mainstream movie showing sex scene use porn actors the same way they use a stunt actor.



  • @'Sol':

    I still have no idea what this thread is about.

    I'm not totally clear on that either :D but its a good thread

    @'matthacker':

    sexual scenes in movies are an illusion - the actors/actress themselves are not actually having sex. You could show nudity, hair and even genitalia, but the actual sex (oral, anal or vaginal penetration) is always implied.

    The movie "Antichrist" with Willem Defoe features an explicit sex scene (during the opening credits if memory serves) And I mean completely explicit, filmed like a porno.

    I hope it wasnt the actual movie actors doing it, as that would mean I've seen Willem Defoes cock :D

    Theres also a french movie (I don't know the name) where Rocco Siffredi has explicit sex with an adorable teenage actress. The fact that the movie looked like a love story is ironic considering how that guy usually treats women

    @'SinCyprine':

    such imagery promote and convey, willingly or not, a statement about men, women, their relation (lack of) etc…

    I believe that "lack of relation" statement, some porn looks more mechanical and devoid of life and emotion than some 3dx imo. (one of the reasons I'm so fussy about rl porn)



  • I still have no idea what this thread is about.



  • there would be a lot to say about the tolerance of violence & its depiction vs. intolerance toward showing sexuality, but i guess it would be an entire new topic !

    now, bulls eye the subject would be violence in porn.
    in a previous thread about dislikes in porn, most to the forumite agreed that degrading & violent scenes were a turn off. such imagery promote and convey, willingly or not, a statement about men, women, their relation (lack of) etc…

    dont get me wrong, picturing negative concept can also be part of a narrative, but what matters in the end is the point of the narrative, its finality (if any) or sheer its indulgence.

    take rape for exemple.
    its got its niche scene, spectators indulge their dark fantasies perpetuating the meme.
    on the other hand you, creators brings the subject to reflect upon it (for eg Irrevessible http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290673/)

    another good exemple is Sade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade)
    his depiction of sexuality is full of violence & degradation but does serve the purpose of his reflexion, most of it being the freedom to think, even the worth. also consider the time period where breaking free from old patterns was the focus.

    what i mean by politics and adressing to 3dx creators is our part of responsability / necessity to think our medium.



  • Glad that's settled.

    Returning to the thread's topic, I've been thinking about the political side (or aspects if you will) of porn or at least sex scenes..

    Now, sex scenes (or rather sexual scenes) in movies, mainstream or not, is not new. The depictions are more explicit and stronger with time. So what makes them different? I think for one, sexual scenes in movies are an illusion - the actors/actress themselves are not actually having sex. You could show nudity, hair and even genitalia, but the actual sex (oral, anal or vaginal penetration) is always implied.

    This is different with porn, which generally shows penetration (well at least hardcore ones).

    SinCyprine brought up the paralel with violence, which is pervasively abundant today. Perhaps the main reason violence is so tolerated is because the majority of depictions (in movies) are always simulated - they do not actually happen.


  • administrators

    @'matthacker':

    I never said/wrote that you say it is the only way, but it is the MOST way. Big difference there. Pardon me, but the I believe the word most implies higher level of priority/significance compared to the others. As for the second point, I never assumed it is your only way. It still takes into account there are others.

    Ok fair enough.
    And yes, I think 'Most' is applicable, but that's just my opinion and I've stated why.



  • @'miro':

    I'll have to keep it short.

    The fact that you made it look like I was saying it's THE (one and only) way to happiness is the problem.

    Firstly I specifically said it's NOT the only way, secondly you assumed it's my ONLY way, it's not, it's complimentary, meaning it's a big part of what makes me happy, but it's not the only thing. This is where love, relationships, other hobbies and all the other things in life enter the picture.
    Much like a Federer loves his tennis, but it's probably not everything to him.

    The reason I said it's natural and one of the most profound is and what qualifies it a tiny bit more than all the other passions/ hobbies is that to a degree sex and by extension porn is instilled in every one of us, due to the fact that nature has required it's use for procreation and gave us the orgasm as a little present for safe keeping in times of need :) This is a simple fact not a whim or opinion. Most can live without tennis, but it's very hard to eradicate sexual attraction from your life!

    Anyway, this got long winded after all… lol

    I never said/wrote that you say it is the 'only' way, but it is the 'MOST' way.

    @'matthacker':

    Paraphrasing your sentence - 3DX is the most profound and natural way to reach happiness, though not the only one. So, from that sentence, 3DX is the most deep, intense, complete pathway to happiness.

    Big difference there. Pardon me, but the I believe the word 'most' implies higher level of priority/significance compared to the others.

    As for the second point, I never assumed it is your only way, but it is your 'most' way. It still takes into account there are others. Quoting your Federer's example, tennis is not everything to him, but it is very likely much higher than others.


  • administrators

    I'll have to keep it short.

    The fact that you made it look like I was saying it's THE (one and only) way to happiness is the problem.

    Firstly I specifically said it's NOT the only way, secondly you assumed it's my ONLY way, it's not, it's complimentary, meaning it's a big part of what makes me happy, but it's not the only thing. This is where love, relationships, other hobbies and all the other things in life enter the picture.
    Much like a Federer loves his tennis, but it's probably not everything to him.

    The reason I said it's natural and one of the most profound is and what qualifies it a tiny bit more than all the other passions/ hobbies is that to a degree sex and by extension porn is instilled in every one of us, due to the fact that nature has required it's use for procreation and gave us the orgasm as a little present for safe keeping in times of need :) This is a simple fact not a whim or opinion. Most can live without tennis, but it's very hard to eradicate sexual attraction from your life!

    Anyway, this got long winded after all… lol



  • @'miro':

    I'm not kidding mate, and if you're going to make condescending statement like that you better provide your reasoning to the contrary.

    OK.

    You define happiness as the goal in life, meaning everyone strives to achieve it.

    Wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happiness
    Happiness is a fuzzy concept and can mean many different things to many people. Part of the challenge of a science of happiness is to identify different concepts of happiness, and where applicable, split them into their components. Related concepts are well-being, quality of life and flourishing. Some commentators focus on the difference between the hedonistic tradition of seeking pleasant and avoiding unpleasant experiences, and the eudaimonic tradition of living life in a full and deeply satisfying way.

    I think the last sentence (full and deeply) is aptly put to the phrase you also use - profound.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profound
    1. penetrating or entering deeply into subjects of thought or knowledge; having deep insight or understanding: a profound thinker.
    2. originating in or penetrating to the depths of one's being; profound grief.
    3. being or going far beneath what is superficial, external, or obvious: profound insight.
    4. of deep meaning; of great and broadly inclusive significance: a profound book.
    5. pervasive or intense; thorough; complete: a profound silence.

    Of course these are all just labels, but most will agree with the characteristics described.

    Paraphrasing your sentence - 3DX is the most profound and natural way to reach happiness, though not the only one. So, from that sentence, 3DX is the most deep, intense, complete pathway to happiness.

    My problem is that 3DX, much like porn is superficial and more inline with the first reference (of seeking pleasure/avoiding unpleasantness) rather than achieving living a full, complete life. So, where is love then in relation to 3DX? By that sentence, love is beneath 3DX's position. Likewise with companionship, both of them are generally associated with the term 'a full life'. Or any other things for that matter.

    Maybe I'm wrong, or at the very least have different definition of happiness that simply can't be filled with just 3DX alone.


  • administrators

    @'matthacker':

    The most profound and natural way to reach happiness? :) I'm taking that with a truckload of salt …. or humor because you're honestly kidding.

    I'm not kidding mate, and if you're going to make condescending statement like that you better provide your reasoning to the contrary.

    And if you're going to quote me, quote me correctly. I said one of the… everyone has their own road to happiness. If you think sex doesn't play a big role in life, tell me how you came to be? I think what I do has value, if I didn't I wouldn't do it. And no I don't think porn is depraved, animalistic instincts, obscene or any of that crap traditionalists try to sell us, but convince me otherwise :)



  • @'fredfred5150':

    I've commissioned images in the past that despite containing nudity where not pornographic in nature, and were specifically designed to not be pornographic, does that still count as an exercise in self-indulgence?

    I think the answer is in there already. By nature, commission work is tailored to the specific request of the client, no? So, the artist indulges your needs/request.



  • @'matthacker':

    .
    As for the original topic of this thread, I think one needs to broaden one's horizon a bit when it comes to the term 'sex scenes', particularly 3DX artists and fans. Most 3DX scenes are by extension an exercise of self indulgence of the artist and/or the client (when it comes to commision work). So I understand there's a lot of personal bias involved. However, I think we all can grow further beyond just creating self indulgence.

    I've commissioned images in the past that despite containing nudity where not pornographic in nature, and were specifically designed to not be pornographic, does that still count as an exercise in self-indulgence?



  • @'miro':

    just my opinion, I am neither a biologist or a scientist, but I can tell the difference between an orgasm and sex and I think most people can. Just because we all have slightly different interpretations of what constitutes sex doesn't mean we can't point at a couple humping and say yep that's sex.

    But there lies the conundrum - you know, or rather believe you know, these things but the definiton you wrote is too restrictive.

    @'miro':

    For me it boils down to this:

    Love = companionship which more often than not is a measure for compatibility for sex/ procreation
    Orgasm = one of the most amazing experiences a human can have, instilled by nature to encourage procreation (so fun + off spring)
    Sex = the act to reach an orgasm (2+ people)
    Masterbation = the act to reach orgasm (1 person often using porn)
    Porn (includes 3DX) = sex as entertainment
    Entertainment = generate happiness
    Happiness = the goal of life

    Hope that clarifies why 3DX is so important. It's not the only pathway to happiness of course, but it's likely the most profound and most natural and it's the only form of entertainment that results in an orgasm - generally speaking :)

    The most profound and natural way to reach happiness? :) I'm taking that with a truckload of salt …. or humor because you're honestly kidding.

    As for the original topic of this thread, I think one needs to broaden one's horizon a bit when it comes to the term 'sex scenes', particularly 3DX artists and fans. Most 3DX scenes are by extension an exercise of self indulgence of the artist and/or the client (when it comes to commision work). So I understand there's a lot of personal bias involved. However, I think we all can grow further beyond just creating self indulgence.

    Rather than putting too much elements (fantasy characters, background and settings), why not break sex scenes down to it's most basic elements - physical and psychological. It's been said quite often in this forum, artists are generally 'lazy' when it comes to expressions - more accurately, the range of expressions. When we can achieve this, the renders produced will speak far more than the typical 3DX renders we've seen now.

    Take for example, Clayton Cubbitt's video above. I believe that's sexy (as some people do) although it's basically just someone reading a book (with the help of a Hitachi magic wand nuzzled to their genitals). It's definitely not porn, though some will characterize it as pornographic due to its erotic nature.



  • @'fredfred5150':

    You guys seem to know more about Dr. Manhattan than me :D

    Anyway, I view sex and love as being simultaneously completely separate and completely intertwined

    The inherent contradiction in that viewpoint probably explains my status as permanently single :D

    True dat, lol.

    I share the same view. Sexual desire to me is just a natural function of our warm blooded bodies. Our brains seek stimulation and due to many many many differences, those desires vary quite a bit. Sexual desire is the ultimate conditional relationship. Some folks are very picky about their sexual mate, others not so much, but we all have some terms that need to be met before we are willing to have sex with someone. Even if that condition is as vague as "woman over 18" or "under 200 lbs"

    Love on the other hand has always seemed to me a function of the heart (the spiritual heart, not the blood pump). It comes with time and in it's strongest and purest form is UNconditional. The love of a mother for her child. The love of family. Etc. Etc. Love happens with time. Sexual desire draws couples together, but love is something that forms over time.

    Probably not so coincidentally, I too am eternally single, lol! XD


  • administrators

    @'matthacker':

    How is one atom is different from another? Consequently, how is one signal different to another? Back to the original idea - how is love, sex, orgasm, happiness is different from another? All of them are just labels we put to a concept we never could really clearly define, much less understand.

    just my opinion, I am neither a biologist or a scientist, but I can tell the difference between an orgasm and sex and I think most people can. Just because we all have slightly different interpretations of what constitutes sex doesn't mean we can't point at a couple humping and say yep that's sex.

    Yes my descriptions above are my opinion only. I'm not trying to sell them as gospel I am offering them as an IMO important explanation though, but people are of course free to accept or reject those ideas.

    I did not attempt to describe the difference between making love and vulgar sex I'm attempting to describe the fundamental concept of what sex is and which (I think) most of us can agree on, specifically in the context of porn and how it relates to happiness.

    yes sex and orgasm are "just" labels, but we do not add labels arbitrarily we add labels because we can clearly discern different properties between certain actions/ objects

    a rock is "just" a certain collection of atoms, a human is "just" a certain collection of atoms… so because everything's made of varying collections of atoms, we should not discern a rock from a human?

    just because we can boil down an orgasm and sex to a variation in bioelectric signals, we can't clearly distinguish between them?

    anyway I'm not trying to sound preachy, just trying to explain my little collection of terms above


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