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  • You can easily make stuff like that in Firefly, especially as that's actually not good. The shadows are too soft for a spotlight filled area.

    The SSS bug during IDL was a thorn in my side for a very long time and was one of the main reasons I went to Octane as soon as I could.

    Hah, Jack uses a quadratic ton of postwork. Don't ever trust those pictures. Look:

    It took me 5 minutes for both.
    Now you can run around telling everyone how great FireFly is.



  • I don't know, I mean look at this: http://decanandersen.deviantart.com/art/Indoor-Spotlight-Illumination-For-Daz3D-388887882
    I've rarely been able to get results as good as the illustration above in Firefly, (of course some vendors' materials are crap so that doesn't help matters, some even advise you to disable indirect lighting and if you turn it their sets fall apart, but then again I certainly don't know everything there is to know, there is a guy called metalhed13 on Deviantart who puts out the most amazing firefly renders so…) plus it has problems with indirect lighting, where it will create a muddy look and it's basically been confirmed that it's an unfixable bug. Which is why I'm happy they're integrating a new rendering engine. I've got PBR envy, LOL. I've seen some very cool results with Cycles. Plus weird glow when SSS skin touches the floor (see here in my thread: http://affect3d.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4484&pid=43518#pid43518) or a blurry look when two body parts using SSS touch one another. Although if I hung around the DAZ forums long enough, I'd have probably found similar complaints about 3Delight.
    Personally, I've rarely been able to get renders as good as the DAZ promos. Jack Tomalin's for instance. Firefly can't do caustics at all.
    And as for the waxy look, one can get that in Poser too if they don't know what they're doing.



  • I don't think they "dig" the Poser interface better as much as they're used to it and they want Genesis in Poser because, from the looks of it, it's just better than V4. Although I haven't tried it.

    I thought they removed the install manager?

    I actually always thought that FireFly was the better render. 3Delight stuff always looked a bit too "wax based lifeforms". But as I'm in Octane it doesn't really matter for me either way.

    I think you hit the proverbial hammer on the nail…head...thing...anyway! Smith Micro treats Poser as just another program they bought and are now doing the usual "one update per year until we milk it dry" thing we're familiar with in the software industry.

    I actually never bought anything from Content Paradise, I honestly thought it was dead. It looks dead. Most of the stuff sold on it actually looks like it would be right at home in Poser 6.

    On the other hand, you've got Daz that seems really serious about their product but, I would actually like a serious, paid version of Daz that would depend less on vendors and more on Daz itself.



  • Ooh, things are heating up, hope this doesn't turn into a "your momma sucks" thread. I don't know, I tried DAZ first since it was free and my first thought was "good thing I didn't pay money for this". That interface doesn't make sense to me at all. In a "There are people who find 3Ds Max easy to use. I suspect those people used to be normal and happy. Poor fellas…" kind of way. Why do you think so many people are clamoring for Genesis in Poser? Because they dig the Poser interface better.

    And that DAZ install manager crap, and the fact that upon first run it was unable to find the files for the "Inside the asylum" demo. I mean for fuck's sake, those were included with the program! I was like "what the fuck". I'm not a delusional fanboy, I will admit that there are things it does better than Poser, and I've seen some amazing renders made with 3Delight. In fact 3delight seems to be superior to Firefly. I've installed DAZ about 3 times, and each time I did I said to myself "OK, I'll give it another try". Dreamlight's tutorials have cleared up the interface a bit, but not much. I'll let it settle for a while and try my hand again at it.

    As for Cinema4d integration Poser Pro has that included (but I'll admit that I haven't really gotten it to work, but that doesn't really prove anything, I may just be a dumbass) and then there is also a plugin called Interposer for that. And also, with the integration of a PB renderer, if it is implemented right (Cycles supports real time preview), Iray won't be that much of an advantage.

    Paying hundreds of dollars for a video card (and it has to be an Nvidia one to boot) to me kind of negates the "free" part of DAZ. If they're smart, (that's a big "if") Smith Micro will provide integration with/export to Blender, which can do some awesome things, fire, smoke, fluid simulation, destruction of objects (I don't know the technical term for that). The way they seem to be going about the new renderer doesn't fill me with hope though.
    On the passiveness side, I thinks it's less abut that and more about the fact that Smith Micro seems to be doing everything on the cheap. I remember someone at RuntimeDNA saying that the only reason they made that Air-based library (which ironically, I actually like, because it has that two-pane layout the way DAZ has, but sadly they'll probably do away with in Poser 2016, just my luck) was because SM was too cheap to pay one of the guys who is currently betatesting Poser 2016, the hourly rate he asked to write the code for it in another language.

    Don't quote me on that though, I'd have to look up that particular thread and I really don't have the time for that. Besides, they've got bigger fish to fry, so Poser seems to be more of an afterthought.
    And even what they do have they are neglecting. They have their own online store (Content paradise), they have figures that look great, created by Blackhearted (Tyler and Anastasia based on their own), but they haven't done enough to compete with the DAZ marketing machine.

    Not sure what they could have done about that to be honest, DAZ has a fund that has invested millions of dollars in them, but I find the argument that it's expensive to do marketing to be absurd. You're selling your software for money, for God's sake. Spend some of it.



  • Oh yeah, I agree with all of that. It's not just that Daz is a more modern product they now also have the backing of Nvidia and that's a really, really nice thing to have in this industry.

    Honestly I wanted to move over to Daz for years but the lack of dynamic cloth room and the speed with which the Octane plug-in is being developed made me uninterested. That and the fact Daz refuses to give out the HD plug-in that would allow people to keep proper sub-d from Daz to zBrush and back again. Only Daz vendors have that from what I've been told and that's a really big deal for me as I sculpt every pose in zBrush.



  • @'Nox':

    Reverse Deformations are unnecessary with dynamic clothing and/or fitting room.

    I use that for characters, and very often for G2F, no so with G3F, but if we talk about V4, even WM one, she must be sculpted by hand in every pose, and i have found not so comfortable to work with sculpting tools inside Poser…

    @'Nox':

    Poser perfectly fits with 3Ds Max

    As with C4D too, in C4D you can do reverse engineering with Poser container, that was very important thing for me in the sense of learning, when i done this in first time, thanks to Poser. :)

    @'Nox':

    it CAN

    This is probably most tedious things, and when you have to do this 100-1000 times, clicks begin to make a difference, Poser needs more hotkeys and needs better, newer interface, like in C4D, solid one, at least in Pro Edition, also OBJ exporter and morph loader like in DAZ Studio, then it will be must have app. I hope they will do this sometime.

    @'Nox':

    Agreed, that interface needs a face-lift if nothing else. Do you know that they actually made it less customizable over the years? I had to force the new version to use the ui files of the old version in order to fix that. It was just stupid.

    Oh, thats sad. :( But, i kinda glad that you have found workaround! :)

    I have nothing about Poser, that was a fun and great tool to play and start with. Most of my negative coming to Smith Micro, they just killing Poser by their passiveness…



  • @'HitmanX3Z':

    DAZ have usability and awesome customizable interface in simple things where poser doesn't have it.

    Don't know if Poser have Reverse Deformations in it's latest version, or it still a payed third party python plugin?

    DAZ perfectly fits in combination with Cinema 4D, it's becomes very powerful in that way, you can do stuff, make clothing in something like just one simple click.

    Can Poser transfer rigging from one figure to another in couple of clicks? Can Poser operate with multiple bones an once for posing? Can Poser zero values in them in one simple click? Etc. Etc. Etc.

    DAZ really, really much-much better and easy to use then old clunky Poser. And Poser's interface should be rewritten from scratch years ago.

    This is not that fan boys thing from me, i have no problems in switching between different apps if one will be better and fits perfectly in my workflow. And i also have started my way into 3DX with Poser 7.

    ps. i really miss in this days free plugin for Poser that was called hamplemann and developed by Dizzi, it was much better then DAZ's Puppeeter, but i still use his Advanced Library to load tons of poser stuff in DAZ Studio, and this is probably best content Library Tool ever, works perfect when it's simple plain text database file on SDD, also should have LAA flag on it's main executable file, to load massive banks of data to it's main windows with previews, like folder with ~600 subfolders with clothing items for V4, it's like ~4000 or more objects that you can preview in Advanced Library, it's awesome, also it's have awesome search engine, and works much more faster then DAZ SQL Database.

    Ease of use is something that comes with use in every program. There are people who find 3Ds Max easy to use. I suspect those people used to be normal and happy. Poor fellas…

    Reverse Deformations are unnecessary with dynamic clothing and/or fitting room.

    Poser perfectly fits with 3Ds Max...

    Again, I do agree Daz is easier to use, I actually mentioned it several times already, you don't have to keep saying "one simple click" in every sentence. The fact still remains that Poser can do those things, not in "one simple click" but it CAN do them while the things Poser can do Daz can NOT, at all.

    Agreed, that interface needs a face-lift if nothing else. Do you know that they actually made it less customizable over the years? I had to force the new version to use the ui files of the old version in order to fix that. It was just stupid.

    Yes, libraries for both of them are a mess. I already tried several of these things, like Shaderworks Library Manager and something else and they weren't that good so I went back to standard one but I didn't try Advanced Library. It actually seems good, I'll give it a go. Thanks for that.



  • @'Nox':

    Another thing about Daz I dislike is the sheer number of users that border on fanatical dedication.

    Give someone something for free and it suddenly becomes a better thing than all other things and their bits.

    Does Daz have a implemented cloth room? Fitting room? Hair room? Physics? No. The things it has come extra, are very limited and are at a mercy of a single man and his extortionate prices. Just because you don't use these things does not make them useless.

    Yes, Daz is a lovely "make art button" but if you want to go deeper there is nothing there.
    It aims for a more casual user, which is fine…great, even, as I'm sure anyone who uses zBrush will agree with. Making that bloody thing a bit more casual would make our lives much easier.

    Daz has strengths, strengths that go away fast if you remove the "free" argument from the discussion.

    Poser is still the better program but that is becoming less and less important with every new rendition of Genesis, because that's what people actually mean when they say Daz is better. Unless they figure out how to either enhance V4 or replace it, they will most likely not survive on the market.

    This new update for 11 appeals to people who, most likely, don't actually use Poser atm. and I doubt this will be enough to sway them to its side.

    I'd prefer a more stable Poser, with a reworked library that doesn't use Air and a UI that has more customization than it has atm. I'd upgrade for that. As is, it seems more likely that Daz will get the things I need sooner than Poser will.

    DAZ have usability and awesome customizable interface in simple things where poser doesn't have it.

    Don't know if Poser have Reverse Deformations in it's latest version, or it still a payed third party python plugin?

    DAZ perfectly fits in combination with Cinema 4D, it's becomes very powerful in that way, you can do stuff, make clothing in something like just one simple click.

    Can Poser transfer rigging from one figure to another in couple of clicks? Can Poser operate with multiple bones an once for posing? Can Poser zero values in them in one simple click? Etc. Etc. Etc.

    DAZ really, really much-much better and easy to use then old clunky Poser. And Poser's interface should be rewritten from scratch years ago.

    This is not that fan boys thing from me, i have no problems in switching between different apps if one will be better and fits perfectly in my workflow. And i also have started my way into 3DX with Poser 7.

    ps. i really miss in this days free plugin for Poser that was called hamplemann and developed by Dizzi, it was much better then DAZ's Puppeeter, but i still use his Advanced Library to load tons of poser stuff in DAZ Studio, and this is probably best content Library Tool ever, works perfect when it's simple plain text database file on SDD, also should have LAA flag on it's main executable file, to load massive banks of data to it's main windows with previews, like folder with ~600 subfolders with clothing items for V4, it's like ~4000 or more objects that you can preview in Advanced Library, it's awesome, also it's have awesome search engine, and works much more faster then DAZ SQL Database.



  • Apologies, I wrote that while my mind was absent opening a new thread and forgot to add that yes, Poser fanatics are just…yes. I know. Not to mention that their arguments for Poser consists of nothing but saying how Poser is the first and the original as if this is somehow important.

    Dealing with communities that form around commercial products is almost always a trial.



  • I am with thehawkman, I cannot even go into the Renderosity / Renderotica / RuntimeDNA forums anymore. The fanaticism in those forums make ISIS look like the boyscouts. It's anti Daz rhetoric for the sake of rhetoric. A never ending stream of shit talking about products that they cannot seem to stop themselves from buying and then complaining about how it doesn't work properly in Poser.

    After using Poser since 2001, I switched when Iray became available. Now what to do with three Octane licenses… ?



  • @'Nox':

    Another thing about Daz I dislike is the sheer number of users that border on fanatical dedication.

    Give someone something for free and it suddenly becomes a better thing than all other things and their bits.

    Does Daz have a implemented cloth room? Fitting room? Hair room? Physics? No. The things it has come extra, are very limited and are at a mercy of a single man and his extortionate prices. Just because you don't use these things does not make them useless.

    Yes, Daz is a lovely "make art button" but if you want to go deeper there is nothing there.
    It aims for a more casual user, which is fine…great, even, as I'm sure anyone who uses zBrush will agree with. Making that bloody thing a bit more casual would make our lives much easier.

    Daz has strengths, strengths that go away fast if you remove the "free" argument from the discussion.

    Poser is still the better program but that is becoming less and less important with every new rendition of Genesis, because that's what people actually mean when they say Daz is better. Unless they figure out how to either enhance V4 or replace it, they will most likely not survive on the market.

    This new update for 11 appeals to people who, most likely, don't actually use Poser atm. and I doubt this will be enough to sway them to its side.

    I'd prefer a more stable Poser, with a reworked library that doesn't use Air and a UI that has more customization than it has atm. I'd upgrade for that. As is, it seems more likely that Daz will get the things I need sooner than Poser will.

    Ha, believe me, I'm a member at RuntimeDNA where the official Poser forums are and my impression is precisely the opposite. The fanbois there are just as rabid, if not more. And on Renderosity, there was a guy who had as his signature "Poser is a religion". I can't help but wonder if it isn't precisely those kind of fanatics that have given the wrong kind of feedback to Smith Micro, because as usual, fanatics are the loudest but they make unreliable friends.



  • Another thing about Daz I dislike is the sheer number of users that border on fanatical dedication.

    Give someone something for free and it suddenly becomes a better thing than all other things and their bits.

    Does Daz have a implemented cloth room? Fitting room? Hair room? Physics? No. The things it has come extra, are very limited and are at a mercy of a single man and his extortionate prices. Just because you don't use these things does not make them useless.

    Yes, Daz is a lovely "make art button" but if you want to go deeper there is nothing there.
    It aims for a more casual user, which is fine…great, even, as I'm sure anyone who uses zBrush will agree with. Making that bloody thing a bit more casual would make our lives much easier.

    Daz has strengths, strengths that go away fast if you remove the "free" argument from the discussion.

    Poser is still the better program but that is becoming less and less important with every new rendition of Genesis, because that's what people actually mean when they say Daz is better. Unless they figure out how to either enhance V4 or replace it, they will most likely not survive on the market.

    This new update for 11 appeals to people who, most likely, don't actually use Poser atm. and I doubt this will be enough to sway them to its side.

    I'd prefer a more stable Poser, with a reworked library that doesn't use Air and a UI that has more customization than it has atm. I'd upgrade for that. As is, it seems more likely that Daz will get the things I need sooner than Poser will.



  • Paid product with integration of Open Source Render engine with outdated technologies?

    Versus free product with the same or more functionality and already build in premium render engine which costs 590 euro, but you will get it also for free.

    @'Nox':

    Uhh, actually, Daz is free for the same reason video games are "free". It gets people hooked and then throws hidden charges at you.

    Uhh, all Poser market is the same, with one exception, you had to pay for the main program in addition. But DAZ do it more effective and more professional.



  • Uhh, actually, Daz is free for the same reason video games are "free". It gets people hooked and then throws hidden charges at you.

    "Oh yes, isn't this a pretty dress? Yes, yesssss! It would look marvelous on your totally and completely free figure that came with your totally and completely free program."

    Daz is what's referred to as "freemium". You get the base to hook you and before you know it you've just spend 200$ on a pointlessly detailed bikini.

    It's an effective business strategy. There's a booming mobile market that uses it.



  • @'thehawkman':

    "How they would benefit"? Having the market all to themselves would not benefit them?

    I just saw this now. This is a strange argument, since SmithMicro and DAZ aren't competitors, although DAZ's free software undermines SM's paid software. DAZ doesn't sell Studio. It makes no revenue from it and have to pay to develop and support it (plus whatever licensing fees they pay for bundled technology like the 3delight renderer). As long as Poser users get their content from DAZ—even a fraction of their content—DAZ makes money. It's irrelevant to their financials if you use Studio or Poser. Nor does Genesis 3 prevent their real competitors—RuntimeDNA, Renderosity, etc.—from selling Genesis 3-compatable products. They are already.

    My suspicion is that DAZ created Studio when they saw Poser at a weak point and had to consider the possibility that their business would fail if Poser stopped being developed or did something that prevented their products from being usable. So Studio is a defensive measure. It may also be a ploy to get more people into figure posing art, since Poser's price is a barrier to entry. Studio more like Android (designed to ensure everybody uses Google services) than Windows (designed to ensure everybody buys Windows and Office).



  • I dislike both of them, Daz feels like a strange puzzle where one piece is free but you need pay for every extra in order to form a full picture while Poser is just…I mean, they used "SuperFly" as code for the render engine, should make it clear how "hip" and "down with it" they really are when it comes to innovation.

    I either want a proper figure in Poser that will let me keep sub-d between zBrush and Poser or I want Daz to make a proper cloth room and release that bloody HD plug-in to the rest of us.

    As is, the cloth room is just too big of a thing to give up to switch to Daz so I'm staying with Poser but will no longer be upgrading.



  • i used poser for exactly… around 5 minutes... and then decided to better go with daz studio :D



  • When Iray dropped, I just switched to DS. Too much goodness there to ignore… I mean, for fucks sake! The Poser preview window still runs like a bag of dicks.



  • Mmm… After Poser Game Dev, I don't have much faith in SM. That shit was just a money grab that provided no useful tools whatsoever. Plus it switched your program to authentication, so if you went offline for a couple weeks... well your Poser no longer worked. Double whammy of fail. And now their brilliant "new product" is to just tack on somebody else's rendering engine? 'Kay.

    Will wait and see, but have zero positive feelings about it.


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