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  • if i think about the problems we face as a race in a whole, there one thing thats stands out really much, although we aquired technologies that let us send men to the moon and in near future to the mars we are still the thinking like the people in the middle ages when it comes to our surroundings, we see what we want to see and all thats negative will be cast away. Some will say we see the negative things through media and films like "Plastic Planet" or " a uncomfortable Thruth", but we see it think omg thats really bad shit and then take a dump in the toilet, go to the fridge and look if there is something good to eat.
    We saw it.
    We were shocked.
    We took a dump.
    We forget until the next bad thing pops up right before us.
    I might be a little exaggerated to say it like this, but is anyone really unfamiliar with such a scene?



  • Mhm… I kind think the scale just switched from groups in society to whole countries… and people living in first world countries are just the aristocracy of 500 years ago. So of course live is good for us and things do improve and we have lots of freedom… but the same thing was true for the privileged people of the past (they could fuck their relatives all they want and get divorced and stuff…)

    On a large scale "lots of poor people working for the wealth of few" hasn't changed one bit imo and I don't think it will, since capitalism doesn't work that way. It only supports certain percentage of wealthy people (and imo most social laws are kinda like patching an inherently broken system…)
    So things might not get worse and not really better either… the affected groups just changed…

    Friend of mine says that we won't see any major improvements if personal benefit is the driving factor for… anything in peoples lives… he might have a point and I don't think we improved in this regard in the last 1000 years, actually it probably got worse.

    And I agree that humanity seems to be really bad at addressing problems, before it's almost too late… even if solutions are already available. A small scale and harmless example is the whole IPv4/IPv6 issue^^

    Oh… and most first world countries do have the problem that the countries wealth is not as even distributed among the population than say 20 years ago… guess most people learned in school that Japan has a really strong middle class, well… not anymore.

    And regarding the point "there is no slavery":
    http://slaveryfootprint.org/
    I think I actually wanted to post this months ago xD



  • Okay here's my 2 cents.

    Small scale sure, were getting better, we're understanding the problems we face and we try to make life better for us, family and friends.

    On the HUGE scale, we're all FUCKED!!!!, it has been brought up about companies and media being the prime destructive force, and sorry I haven't read every comment but I'd like to add money and religion to that list as well.

    The problem is as a race we are very greedy, and sometimes honestly I wish we hadn't discovered fire and that we were still just hunter/gathers, life would have been so much easier and dangerous but easier none the less.

    There are too many of us on this planet and with each day that is only getting worse, now I'm not going to sound like some sort of dictator "cough" Hitler "cough" but in some way we do have to watch our numbers, I'm not saying population control is what we need, but everyone really needs to wise up about how we live, sure have fun and fuck everything, but remember when we all die and there is nothing left but Mother Earth, she still wins, and don't think in a million years there will be museums here created by some other top species asking what human were like when they ruled the earth, because I don't think evolution or God is dumb enough to let this happen again.

    The other problem I see that is fucking us up is those in charge, I don't care what county you live in, the guy or girl in charge of the country is an idiot, I got asked one day if I would ever join the army and I said no, now I don't mean any offence to those who serve, because you really are hero's, but when a leader sends those brave souls into a country for their own gain is absolute bullshit, if you're going to invade a country for any reason, be honest, sorry America I'm going to use you as an example, if you want the oil fields in the middle east than fucking say so and do it, you don't need to hide behind some bullshit, your a world power do you think Cesar, Napoleon or even Hitler said, lets make up a story and invade, no they just went and did it.

    Sorry I don't mean to offend those American's who visit this forum so please don't take it that I'm disrespecting you, I'm just making a point and what can I say your country stands out like a sore thumb at the moment.

    Also I don't want another World War or we will all die and I haven't fuck nearly enough sluts for that day to come.

    So that's my 2 cents, in the small we are doing fine, in the huge we need to shape up or die.



  • Lots of truth behind this. It is just tough to put a finger to it and say thats the problem. Theres many intricate problems ranging from group interconnections, to other psycological issues that result from how we are spending our daily lives, and how we are being influenced by our sourroundings, and of course, in our current media landscape, how we are influenced by the mass media.

    If I had to point a finger, I would probably choose them as one of the main problems of our time. Media suggestion is a powerful instrument for those who want to influence the herd of sheep that we are :)



  • Worse.

    Humans are still largely the same make as they were several thousand years ago: dunbar's number prevents us from seeing more than ~150 human beings as actually human beings, we still get off to the same things, sweet/fatty/salty things are what we eat, same range of temperatures, etc. Same desires, same needs. I think everything should be put in this frame: how does what is happening today actually satisfy our actual desires. Human rights, the price of oil, the "standard of living", these are all only proxy indicators. Moving from feudalism to capitalism has given everyone more money but with every technological advance people spend more time and energy at work rather than for leisure; sexual revolution has resulted in higher pay for women and many women joining the workforce, but many don't attempt to have children until it's too late, at which point they join the ever-growing population of those who need prozac.

    What is the point of life, and how are we achieving that point and/or how to get there?

    To me the most important part is family/friends, and that's been degrading to no end. It wasn't always the case that when you grew up you could no longer see those you know, those you actually see as actual people. Once upon a time the meaning of "home" meant more than "what I've leased for the next year", and "hometown" meant more than "this is where I grew up". "Neighborhood" meant more than just "the houses +/- 500ft up or down the road". People talked to and knew each other and helped each other in a way that "connections" and "professional network" today can only vaguely imitate in the human manner. Stereotypes always have some truth to them; people don't talk about bullshitting the official stuff for no reason, and Fight Club doesn't resonate with people for no reason.

    In the money matter sure it's probably more powerful, but what is money? Gee I can buy more food, or buy new "labor-saving" "technology". The newer and cheaper food is of questionable improvement to before and there's several movements based on this. Labor-saving technology isn't really in the sense that it's making more leisure time - I remember a teacher telling me a story about a politician or someone bragging that the new Concorde was saving him some amount of hours on a regular route, and someone asked him, "So what are you going to do with those hours instead?". And of course, more money is more protection against the unknown. But these days a lot of the unknown is man-made anyways, with lawsuits being significantly more scary than a traffic accident (another man-made thing). So in the effective sense a lot of the pay you get for playing the game is to ensure that you can continue playing the game. Ratio-wise it's not the same as when the game began, these prices are always increasing. I can remember a time when twenty bucks was all it took for a full shopping cart worth of food, good for a family of five. I can remember when sixty nine cents was outrageous for a gallon of gas. I can remember when my dad guaranteed me that no matter where I went to college he'd be able to give me a full ride; now I'm at a cheaper college and taking loans. I don't think these are independent of the path of civilization; that the main narrative is some sort of "great progress" and these "side stories" of high prices can just be arbitrarily changed without significantly shifting the main narrative. Just like how you can't sell lots and lots of cheap food without the obesity pandemic.

    For the traditional uses of money that always need to be planned - i.e. sickness, natural disaster, raising kids - these used to be partly communal. "Takes a village to raise a child" is not just a saying, and before the existence of large corporations which were able to hire you for long periods of time and not for just a single-contract job and the existence of modern medicine, people had to be able to feed and take care of themselves. They didn't do that in the lonely world we have today. They obviously didn't have FEMA either.

    I love 3DX and I love computers, and of course I like being able to just buy food that I like. But what do these things actually help me do, functionally? I would trade them all away for a close group of friends that would fight with me to the death while having to work for my own food on a farm or a wharf. Better yet, that same situation, a thousand years ago. Having Tara or her various equivalents to fap to feels real good, but it doesn't get me anything.

    Okay, it does. It prevents me from joining the Prozac population. The mass teen depression thing is a new thing, by the way. Didn't exist in Renaissance Italy, didn't exist in middle ages, didn't exist in prehistory. The baboons certainly don't have angsty teens, and neither did anything inbetween.

    Human relations are not easily found in the modern developed world, and there are reasons behind it. Humans have evolved in an environment that was always stronger than them, and they needed each other to even survive against it. Now, we see natural disasters as just a bigger-than-normal news story. A catastrophe, sure. But not in the same sense. People expect to get back to work, expect a new house, expect that there will be government flying or trucking in trailers and tents and supplies and all this network stuff. Natural disasters aren't seen as just nature doing its own thing as normal and something we'll have to do better to counter it, it's seen as just a hiccup. Building codes among other things are revised after something like an earthquake to be sure, but these aren't done in the same manner as previous civilizations dealt with famine. They're dealt with in the purely corporate sense. Oh, people are outraged that they weren't up to some standard that they don't know about in a book they've never heard about. Let's advertise ourselves as being greater than the standard, and tell our employees that if they want to have $$$ they must design blah blah blah and refer to bookworms. The intellectualization of everything has resulted in the anti-realization of everything.

    From the frame of architecture:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ
    Start ~4:05

    Could I just adapt? I in particular can't. Will humans eventually adapt? Probably; living organisms generally don't die off unless it's a radically different physical environment. Will those humans be fundamentally different from the current humans and the past humans? Yes.

    1. A traditional girl who's willing to marry and have children right out of high school (or earlier), has a support network of her mother and aunts and grandmothers, focuses on children and stays at home and spends her time maintaining connections. Stays at home so that when you are done with work the home is lighted and warm and there are people and people sounds in it.
    2. A career woman who doesn't plan on marrying and having children until she's 50, has a professional network who she calls on if she needs something for the project/contract she's working on (and vice versa) and doesn't interact with for much else except maybe a karaoke night or a company vacation of 3 days. Goes to work so you can pay off the 30-year single family home you live in, which you always return to as a dark, cold, and lonely rectangular prism you sleep in. Sometimes, you even fuck.

    These worlds aren't the same.
    These worlds aren't compatible.
    These women aren't "equal" in any sense of the word. If you strongly preferred one, would you be fine if you were forcibly traded the other?

    There's a bunch of different things funneling into this current world that make it less and less human. Sexual revolution, industrial revolution, telecommunications - I could talk about this topic for a long time. Just had to write the above because most people don't see this frame / don't take it seriously, when it's of fundamental importance.

    In the form of questions:
    Are people happier? No, and it's clearly not just #firstworldproblems
    Do people feel like they are affecting the world more? No, people hate their jobs even as "middle-level managers", and have to term their little clubs "movements" to feel like something is being done.
    Are people helping each other more? No, first of all because they literally can't see each other due to the physical structure of civilization, second because they think that the impersonal State or Insurance Company or some other abstract entity will deal with it, third because legal implications, fourth because oh shit they could be a terrorist.
    Do people have better relationships? Absolutely the opposite. "Social animal" is not just a textbook phrase. It's a truth. People cannot survive alone, either physically or emotionally.

    In the form of a story:
    I was at one of the on-campus meeting/talk things companies hold, this particular one being Boeing's. One guy, apparently their hype guy, asked us a series of questions. This is to an audience of 2nd year students of aero engineer majors who have really only taken the base math and physics and know nothing about engineering. Remember, this is their hype guy. Not their sarcastic guy.

    Who wants to be an engineer? (everyone raises their hands)
    Who wants to be an aerospace engineer? (slightly fewer)
    Who wants to be an aerospace engineer at Boeing? (slightly more)
    Who wants to be an aerospace engineer at Boeing working on the 777? (one or two)
    Who wants to be an aerospace engineer at Boeing working on the 777's wing spar vibrational stability with group 492b in Seattle?



  • @'hzr':

    But, and I believe that is what Fred meant, we as a race are playing with fire when it comes to being reasonable in how we spend the ressources that we have to our disposal. There is so much stuff that is going on where we are destroying eco systems that will have an effect on global scale, but companies are doing it regardless. Everything right now seems to be fine as long as it helps in making money for your contries net income. Political descisions are aligned to help companies keep their status. When was the last time politicians werent talking about money? But rather about putting stuff in place that helps the people in the country? I can remember times like that, but its been probably 20 years since those debates were happening. Since then its all about helping companies to grow. And on a planet with finite size and ressources, this cant go on forever. Its impossible.

    So, in terms of what we as a race are doing, I have to agree with fred. We are fucking ourselves, and we dont even know it yet, or we dont want to see it.

    Hzr got what I meant, things like abolition of slavey, the advent of womens rights, and 1Gig internet (ie small scale things) won't make a difference if we destroy the very things we rely on for the survival of our species (the big scale things), in fact you could argue that they are the modern day equivalent of "bread and circus's" used to distract the roman populace in ancient times.

    miro, no offence intended, but you sometimes talk like humanity exists in a little bubble universe we created for ourselves that is completely under our control and is not dependent on any outside factor to continue its existence. We don't

    I'm sure human's will save themselves from extinction, but how bad will we let things get before doing something about it? Probably quite bad


  • administrators

    @'hzr':

    I could post a whole novel about this but I dont want to bore you. I just believe that while we are in a good state as a society and how people are treated in democratic countries, we are fucking ourselves on other grounds, mostly when it comes to ressources, overpopulation, waste management (watch the movie "Plastic Planet" for a good example), also the practices of all the big companies and what problems they create for us and our governments because they only exist to make profits and they do ANYTHING they can to achieve this, and not only legally. Theres so much fucked up shit going on all over the world, companies evading taxes almost completely by loopholes in the system, yet they get money buttered up their ass to keep production facilities running in the respective countries and lots of monetary support so that jobs are retained. Its almost hilarious how much they playing the countries and us and we still dont seem to care. I would say we are just lulled in, because we have relatively good lifes. But if we are not careful, things can change dramatically at some point. We are somehow only reacting to problems when the water is already neck high, thats been the problem of humanity ever since.

    Companies are bigger and can do more damage, yes, but again, it looks bad because we're far more aware of it now due to the Internet, etc… before we didn't even know what the corporates, governments or further back kings, aristocrats, etc were up to. Now that we do have more information and are aware of the corruption things will change. Companies already have to play the reputation game and that's going to improve not going to get worse.
    The more people act based on evidence and reason rather than traditions and superstitions the better things will become. Obviously fucking the planet is not sustainable :)

    @'hzr':

    miro, werent you from australia or something? how is life there and freedom of choice, equality of the people etc?

    great over here, lots of freedom, few restrictions, still a lot of screwed legislation like weird handling of porn and R rated games, 1gig internet downgrade to just 50mbit for example - again relics of tradition - but not much worse than other western countries and other than that and generally speaking very free, easy going and great country to live :)



  • In terms of society, things have definately improved. We are currently living in a relaxed community where people can openly express their oppinion without fear, at least in democratic countries. There are still many other examples btw, so we cant say that everything is better right now. But yes, if you are lucky to live in a decent country, things are great in that regard.

    But, and I believe that is what Fred meant, we as a race are playing with fire when it comes to being reasonable in how we spend the ressources that we have to our disposal. There is so much stuff that is going on where we are destroying eco systems that will have an effect on global scale, but companies are doing it regardless. Everything right now seems to be fine as long as it helps in making money for your contries net income. Political descisions are aligned to help companies keep their status. When was the last time politicians werent talking about money? But rather about putting stuff in place that helps the people in the country? I can remember times like that, but its been probably 20 years since those debates were happening. Since then its all about helping companies to grow. And on a planet with finite size and ressources, this cant go on forever. Its impossible.

    So, in terms of what we as a race are doing, I have to agree with fred. We are fucking ourselves, and we dont even know it yet, or we dont want to see it.

    I could post a whole novel about this but I dont want to bore you. I just believe that while we are in a good state as a society and how people are treated in democratic countries, we are fucking ourselves on other grounds, mostly when it comes to ressources, overpopulation, waste management (watch the movie "Plastic Planet" for a good example), also the practices of all the big companies and what problems they create for us and our governments because they only exist to make profits and they do ANYTHING they can to achieve this, and not only legally. Theres so much fucked up shit going on all over the world, companies evading taxes almost completely by loopholes in the system, yet they get money buttered up their ass to keep production facilities running in the respective countries and lots of monetary support so that jobs are retained. Its almost hilarious how much they playing the countries and us and we still dont seem to care. I would say we are just lulled in, because we have relatively good lifes. But if we are not careful, things can change dramatically at some point. We are somehow only reacting to problems when the water is already neck high, thats been the problem of humanity ever since.

    Ah damn, I am already starting to heat up lol. I leave it at that now :)

    edit : Oh btw, I am not seeing it all gloomy and doomy, but sometimes things just cant be swept under the rug :) I have to say that I especially like the fact that there are way less problems between "western" countries and the atmosphere is alot more open these days. Especially europe has really grown together I`d say. Living in germany is a blast because it might be the most democratic and free country in this world at his point, since the USA are becoming more of a police state in recent times than the country of the free :)

    miro, werent you from australia or something? how is life there and freedom of choice, equality of the people etc?



  • THX Miro,
    you said what I was thinking.^^

    @'miro':

    the issue is we look at the world from our point of view of today, we've never known what it was like to be a slave 100 years ago and don't see how much better things are today, so we see how things don't align with our current personal views and judge based on that

    Well and that is what I wanted to say with the high living standards.
    And now I want to qoute my mom, yes you hear right.:D
    She often say something like:" We are complaining on a very high level, compared to the people in the past or people in the other countries"

    I think we improved the life a lot, but we are not finished and we have to spread these improved life better, but that take a while, and as I said the progress is more hidden.


  • administrators

    @'Fred5150':

    On a small scale things are better, but on a big scale we're fucking ourselves, and everyone else present and possibly future :(

    my opinion:

    lol I think it's exactly the opposite, just look at human rights for example, we've come a long way: slavery, women's rights, homosexuality, racism all used to be the order of the day… and I'm talking the entire world accepting these things

    the issue is we look at the world from our point of view of today, we've never known what it was like to be a slave 100 years ago and don't see how much better things are today, so we see how things don't align with our current personal views and judge based on that

    in other words you have to look at the overall trend not the current situation

    having said that there's tons of work that needs to be done to improve life for ourselves and others :)
    and that won't stop till we get to the "perfect society" which in my view is:

    1. private sphere - individual rights trumps all except harm (cause that interferes with other people's rights)
    2. public sphere - basic human rights + democracy since we have to share
    3. political policy based on evidence not tradition & assumption
    4. a direct way for the public to initiate law in a similar way how court cases are decided (through evidence), circumventing the obscure, complex and more often than not corrupt political system


  • I'm with Fred on this one.



  • Well that is hard to decide, on the one hand they might be right in some parts. but on the other hand you have to look from what point they complain. If you look how high the living standards are here and I think in the most countries which the ppl in this forum or the complainers come from, you will see that these complains are ridiculous compared to problems of other countries, you know 1st world problems against 3rd world problems.
    I'm also on the side, that things getting better, but you don't hear so much of it, you know, because bad things are more interesting than good things. The news have big effect on this, bad and shocking news are better for them, than good things. And people who are content don't say something, they just enjoy that they are content. Whereas, complainers are loud, they want to get heard with their complains, you know.
    So I think things getting better but slowly and more hided, and the bad things are more obvious, and get pushed more.
    (sorry for my english and I hope you understand what I wanted to say)



  • im under the impression that noone currently in power is capable of improving society as a whole, which is why my goal in life is world domination



  • On a small scale things are better, but on a big scale we're fucking ourselves, and everyone else present and possibly future :(


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